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Davide
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« Reply #15 on Jun 9, 2005, 11:25am » | |
Message re-posted from The True Sabbaths And New Moons Group:
From: YHWHPeople@aol.com
Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 7:05 am
Subject: Re: [TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons] Fw: Not Lunar Sabbaths
SOMEONE WROTE,
"2 Proof.
The 15th of Abib the going out of Egipt - Israel was neighter resting nor worshipig but traveling."
RESPONSE; Sum try to say that they were traveling on the Sabbath day in Exodus 16th chapter, and in the King James translation it seemed to be a possibility but the Hebrew and the Septuagint proves otherwise. Let’s examine the passage and I will quote a brief excerpt from a NON Lunar Sabbath keeper Fred R. Coulture who is the author of the Christian Passover and several other works. He attended the University of San Francisco and graduated from San Mateo State College before graduating from Ambassador College, Pasadena, California, with a BA in theology in 1964. below is his non bias study, which proves they were not traveling on the Sabbath in Ex-16th chapter.
“And they took their journey from Elim, and all the congregation of the children of Israel came unto the wilderness of sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the 15th day of the second month after their departing out of the land of Egypt. And the whole congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and Aaron in the wilderness.”
This translation makes it appear that Israel arrived at the wilderness of sin while the 15th day was in progress. The Hebrew text, however, does not support the assertion that Israel travel on the 15th day. The present of a major logical pause between the verb “came” and the words “on the 15th day” verifies this fact. This logical pause is denoted by the use of the atnah, and which resembles an upside down “V,” under the Hebrew word for “Sinai.” (See Biblical Hebraic Stuttartessia.)
The atnah and other accents are essential to understanding the thought that are being conveyed in the Hebrew text. These accent marks are all part of a system that I“ ----- punctuates the text and is therefore a very important feature in its syntactic analysis--- this feature of Hebrew grammar is so important for understanding that medieval Jewish scholars paid more attention to it than to establishing the correct pronunciation of words” (Waltke, An introduction to Biblical Hebrew Syntax, p. 29).
Waltke describes the use of the atnah and other accents to express divisions of thought in the Hebrew text of: “Accents in the Masoretic Text are of two kinds: and disjunctives and conjunctives. Disjunctive accents, euphemistically dubbed “lords” by earlier scholars, mark the length of pauses from full stop (Complete break in logical thought) to various shades of shorter pauses (partial break in logical thought); and conjunctives, dubbed “servants,” control the text up to the disjunctive. According to W. Wickes’s comprehensive study of the accents, the disjunctives mark a continuous “dichotomy” of the verse, that is, they divide large units (of thought), beginning with the verse itself (marked off by sillug closing the verse), into successfully smaller half- units of syntactic (or logico-syntactics ) basis. A unit ending with a disjunctive of one grade is divided into halves, and its halves in turn are divided into smaller units by other disjunctive signs until the whole verse is divided into single words or groups of words joined by conjunctives. Israel Yeivin groups the major disjunctive accents as follows: Generally atnah devides the verse, “zaqef” the verse halves, pashta or “revia” the unit ending with “zaqef,” and so on” (lbid., emphasis added).
In translating Exodus 16: 1, Owens indicates the presence of the atnah by parsing the Hebrew word for Sinai as “pr.n.paus.” (proper noun pausal). The division of thought that is expressed by the atnah is illustrated in his translation below:
“they set out from Elim and came all the congregation of the people of Israel to the wilderness of sin which is between Elim and Sinai (logical Pause) on the five ten day of the month second after they had departed from the land of Egypt and murmured the whole congregation of the people of Israel against Moses and Aaron in the wilderness” (Analytical Key to the Old Testament, vol. 1).
The logical pause in Exodus 16:1: divides the thoughts that follow from the preceding thoughts that are expressed in the verse. The Septuagint, which follows the logical markings of the text very closely, translates this passage as follows:
“and they departed from Elim, and all the congregation of the children of Israel came to the wilderness of sin, which is between Elim and Sinai; and on the fifteenth day, in the second month after their departure from the land of Egypt, all the congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and Aaron.”
The presence of the logical pause in Exodus 16: 1 shows that Israel had come to the wilderness of sin and made camp by the beginning of the fifteenth day. When the fifteenth day arrived, Israel complained to Moses that YHWH had brought then to the desert to die. Thus there is no basis for the claim that Israel was traveling on the15th day.
Brother Arnold
SOMEONE CONTINUES,
"But Exodus 16-22,27
"22And Mosheh brought Yisra’el from the Sea of Reeds, and they went out into the Wilderness of Shur. And they went three days in the wilderness and found no water.
....
27And they came to Elim, where there were twelve fountains of water and seven- ty palm trees. And they camped there by the waters."
says they walked three days and reasted. Exodus 3.17-18 tells us that it was planned by YHWH and revealed to Moshe
long ago before they even left Egipt.
"17and I say: I am bringing you up out of the affliction of Mitsrayim to the land of the Kena'anite and the Hittite and the Amorite and the Perizzite and the Hiwwite and the Yebusite, to a land flowing with milk and honey.” ’ 18“And they shall listen to your voice. And you shall come, you and the elders of Yisra’el, to the sovereign of Mitsrayim, and you shall say to him, ‘ Elohim of the Hebrews has met with us. And now, please, let us go three days’ journey into the wilderness to slaughter to our Elohim.’"
So I conclude the 15-th of Abib was not a weekly Sabbath but the 18th.
So far I see errors in this Lunar Sabbaths counting method (8-th, 15-th, 21-st, 28-th).
But what amazes me is that there could be a pattern of two days difference between this method and weekly Sabbaths. And I think this should be investigated especially as there are also two days difference between the begining of creation and the creation of Moon and Sun.
Bless You.
jacek"
RESPONSE; MATTHEW 16:21 "From that time forth began Yeshua to show unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day."
MATTHEW 17:23 "And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry."
MATTHEW 20:19 "And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again."
MARK 9:31 "For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day."
MARK 10:34 "And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again."
LUKE 9:22 "Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day."
LUKE 18:33 "And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again."
LUKE 24:7 "Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again."
LUKE 24:46 "And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:"
Sum try to say that they were traveling on the Sabbath day in Exodus 16th chapter, and in the King James translation it seemed to be a possibility but the Hebrew and the Septuagint proves otherwise. Let’s examine the passage and I will quote a brief excerpt from a NON Lunar Sabbath keeper Fred R. Coulture who is the author of the Christian Passover and several other works. He attended the University of San Francisco and graduated from San Mateo State College before graduating from Ambassador College, Pasadena, California, with a BA in theology in 1964. below is his non bias study, which proves they were not traveling on the Sabbath in Ex-16th chapter.
“And they took their journey from Elim, and all the congregation of the children of Israel came unto the wilderness of sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the 15th day of the second month after their departing out of the land of Egypt. And the whole congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and Aaron in the wilderness.”
This translation makes it appear that Israel arrived at the wilderness of sin while the 15th day was in progress. The Hebrew text, however, does not support the assertion that Israel travel on the 15th day. The present of a major logical pause between the verb “came” and the words “on the 15th day” verifies this fact. This logical pause is denoted by the use of the atnah, and which resembles an upside down “V,” under the Hebrew word for “Sinai.” (See Biblical Hebraic Stuttartessia. )
The atnah and other accents are essential to understanding the thought that are being conveyed in the Hebrew text. These accent marks are all part of a system that I“ ----- punctuates the text and is therefore a very important feature in its syntactic analysis--- this feature of Hebrew grammar is so important for understanding that medieval Jewish scholars paid more attention to it than to establishing the correct pronunciation of words” (Waltke, An introduction to Biblical Hebrew Syntax, p. 29).
Waltke describes the use of the atnah and other accents to express divisions of thought in the Hebrew text of: “Accents in the Masoretic Text are of two kinds: and disjunctives and conjunctives. Disjunctive accents, euphemistically dubbed “lords” by earlier scholars, mark the length of pauses from full stop (Complete break in logical thought) to various shades of shorter pauses (partial break in logical thought); and conjunctives, dubbed “servants,” control the text up to the disjunctive. According to W. Wickes’s comprehensive study of the accents, the disjunctives mark a continuous “dichotomy” of the verse, that is, they divide large units (of thought), beginning with the verse itself (marked off by sillug closing the verse), into successfully smaller half- units of syntactic (or logico-syntactics ) basis. A unit ending with a disjunctive of one grade is divided into halves, and its halves in turn are divided into smaller units by other disjunctive signs until the whole verse is divided into single words or groups of words joined by conjunctives. Israel Yeivin groups the major disjunctive accents as follows: Generally atnah devides the verse, “zaqef” the verse halves, pashta or “revia” the unit ending with “zaqef,” and so on” (lbid., emphasis added).
In translating Exodus 16: 1, Owens indicates the presence of the atnah by parsing the Hebrew word for Sinai as “pr.n.paus.” (proper noun pausal). The division of thought that is expressed by the atnah is illustrated in his translation below:
“they set out from Elim and came all the congregation of the people of Israel to the wilderness of sin which is between Elim and Sinai (logical Pause) on the five ten day of the month second after they had departed from the land of Egypt and murmured the whole congregation of the people of Israel against Moses and Aaron in the wilderness” (Analytical Key to the Old Testament, vol. 1).
The logical pause in Exodus 16:1: divides the thoughts that follow from the preceding thoughts that are expressed in the verse. The Septuagint, which follows the logical markings of the text very closely, translates this passage as follows:
“and they departed from Elim, and all the congregation of the children of Israel came to the wilderness of sin, which is between Elim and Sinai; and on the fifteenth day, in the second month after their departure from the land of Egypt, all the congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and Aaron.”
The presence of the logical pause in Exodus 16: 1 shows that Israel had come to the wilderness of sin and made camp by the beginning of the fifteenth day. When the fifteenth day arrived, Israel complained to Moses that YHWH had brought then to the desert to die. Thus there is no basis for the claim that Israel was traveling on the15th day.
Brother Arnold
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Davide
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« Reply #16 on Jun 9, 2005, 11:44am » | |
Message re-posted from The True Sabbaths and New Moons Group:
From: matjac@op.pl
Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:41 am
Subject: Re: Re: [TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons] Fw: Not Lunar Sabbaths
Shalom,
Brother Arnold said:
"The logical pause in Exodus 16:1: divides the thoughts that follow from the=20 preceding thoughts that are expressed in the verse. The Septuagint, which
follows the logical markings of the text very closely, translates this passage as follows: and they departed from Elim, and all the congregation of the children of Israel came to the wilderness of sin, which is between Elim and Sinai; and on the fifteenth day, in the second month after their departure from the land of Egypt, all the congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and Aaron".
I checked it in my hebrew interlineral translation and there is a problem with Your interpretation because Your interpretation or The Septuagint which You use changes the the position of one essential word : "AND".
Your translation adds "AND" before:"AND in the fifteenth day, " which is not in my interlineral hebrew translation
On the other hand Your translation removes "AND" from before: "AND all the congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses," which is in my interlineral hebrew translation. The position of this "AND" is essential to determine if:
- they came on the 15-th AND murmured
or
- they came on th 14-th AND on the 15-th they murmured
Besides there are other translations which do not agre with Your interpretation.
http://www.eliyah.com/thescriptures/
"And they set out from Elim, and all the congregation of the children of Yisrael came to the Wilderness of Sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after their going out of the land of Mitsrayim. 2AND all the congregation of the children of Yisrael grumbled against Mosheh and Aharon in the wilderness."
Translators may prepare some twisted translation but there is this hebrew letter "AND"
and its position preserved and can be checked by every one not scholar only.
However I have found something in Jewish tradition which supports Your interpretation.
Apparently the Sabbath Rashi describes that the manna came first from heaven on the 16th on the first day of a week.
How about other proofs which I have proposed? You have not answered them yet.
1. Proof.
The 15th of Abib the going out of Egipt - Israel was neighter resting nor worshipig but traveling.
But
Exodus 16-22,27
"22And Mosheh brought Yisrael from the Sea of Reeds, and they went out into the Wilderness of Shur. And they went three days in the wilderness and found no water.
....
27And they came to Elim, where there were twelve fountains of water and seven- ty palm trees. And they camped there by the waters."
says they walked three days and reasted. Exodus 3.17-18 tells us that it was planned by YHWH and revealed to Moshe
long ago before they even left Egipt.
"17and I say: I am bringing you up out of the affliction of Mitsrayim to the land of the Kena'anite and the Hittite and the Amorite and the Perizzite and the Hiwwite and the Yebusite, to a land flowing with milk and honey. 18And they shall listen to your voice. And you shall come, you and the elders of Yisrael, to the sovereign of Mitsrayim, and you shall say to him, Elohim of the Hebrews has met with us. And now, please, let us go three days journey into the wilderness to slaughter to our Elohim."
So I conclude the 15-th of Abib was not a weekly Sabbath but the 18th.
2. Proof:
Levictus 23 "15And from the morrow after the Sabbath, from the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering, you shall count for yourselves: seven completed Sabbaths. 16Until the morrow after the seventh Sabbath you count FIFTY days, then you shall bring a new grain offering to "
It says there Fifty days = seven completed Sabbaths+morrow after the seventh Sabbath. But in Lunar count of Sabbaths You will not allways have this 50 days within this period.
If there were not double days at new Moon which change from month to month then it would fit this Scripture but there are those double days so the theory of Lunar Sabbaths count is wrong.
You need to prove that new Moon day is not counted as a day but the Scripture says IT IS
1 Samuel 20
"34And Yehonathan rose up from the table in the heat of displeasure, and ate no food the second day of the month, for he was grieved for Dawid, because his father put him to shame"
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Davide
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« Reply #17 on Jun 9, 2005, 11:50am » | |
Message re-posted from The True Sabbaths And New Moons Group:
From: PWC <pwc17@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat May 7, 2005 10:03 pm
Subject: Re: [TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons] Lunar Sabbath Fallacy
Dear Br. Arnold,
You have still not forthrightly brought your "evidence" that every 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th of every month is a Sabbath. So far you have offered a very meager sample of your "evidence."
The following information is about Sosigenes, the Jewish astronomer who was hired by Caesar to revamp the Roman Solar Calander.
Sosigenes (born c. 90 BCE), if he was not a contemorary of Philo, he only missed by a few years. Philo Judeaus lived in Alexandria, Egypt (c. 30 BCE - 50 CE) Sosigenes did not change the order or names of the weekdays - he also did not change the times of the 4 seasons. With no changes to the weekly cycle it can safely be concluded that the 7th day Sabbaths correspond to the Saturdays of the Roman Solar Calendar. Is it just curious coincidence that Ethiopic Enoch; with the Solar Calendar, complete with intercalated leap days; was written during Sosigene's lifetime ?? And, doesn't it also strike you as odd that Sosigenes, being a Jew, wasn't barbecued as a heretic or in any way vilified for his Solar Calendar ??
The Jewish population was large in Alexandria (founded in 332 BCE) perhaps as much as a seventh of the total population. The rising power of Rome soon overshadowed Egypt, but it was not until Ptolemy XI sought Roman aid through Pompey to regain his throne that Rome actually obtained (58 BCE) a foothold in Egypt itself. Cleopatra, the daughter of Ptolemy XI, tried to win back power for Egypt, especially through Julius Caesar and Marc Antony. Octavian (aka Emperor Augustus) actually annexed Egypt to Rome, putting to death Cleopatra's son, Ptolemy XIV, who was the last of the Ptolemies. Egypt became a granary for Rome; the emperors from Augustus to Hadrian raised the irrigation system to great efficiency, and Trajan reopened the ancient Nile-Red Sea canal. (source: http://www.factmonster.com/ce6/world/A0857911.html)
By the time Ptolemy wrote his Syntaxis the world was already in turmoil, it was the beginning of the death of Greek astronomy and mankind was descending into a cataclysmic dark age. Around 47 BCE, when Julius Caesar conquered Egypt, the Great Library of Alexandria went up in flames. All recorded ancient scientific knowledge was lost forever and real wisdom silently began to disappear from the face of the Earth. From the Roman author Gaius Plinius Secundus (a.k.a. Pliny the Elder) we learn that "... There were three main schools, the Chaldaean, the Egyptian, and the Greek; and to these a fourth was added in our country by Caesar during his dictatorship, who with the assistance of the learned astronomer Sosigenes (Sosigene perito scientiae eius adhibito) brought the separate years back into conformity with the course of the sun."
(source: http://www.rxs.bigstep.com/generic.html?pid=8)
Babylonian Jewish scholar and astronomer Sosigenes was brought to Julius Caesar in 46 BCE to help him "overhaul" the Roman calendar. Sosigenes not just re-introduced the ancient Egyptian solar calendar with its well-known four-year leap day cycle, but also accounted for the secular error of one (leap) day every 128.18 solar years. As a reminder and symbol of a genuine surviving fragment of ancient wisdom, Sosigenes began the "new year" on the 1st of January 45 BCE, representing the first day of the month of Thoth in the tradition of the ancient "Sirius" calendar. Our New Years Day (Silvester) is a reflection of the age-old ritual, celebrating the return of Sirius to the mid-heaven position at midnight, which occurs around the first of January. Interestingly enough, for 2005 Earth's perihelion is also on January 1st - an event which hasn't happened in centuries. In the year 4241 BCE the "flooding of the Nile" occurred from July 19 to November 15 (Julian calendar), or as we know better from June 15 to October 12 according to our civil calendar.
(sources:http://www.siriusresearchgroup.com/articles/Sothis3.shtml ; /Sothis4.shtml )
The year 46 BCE was given 445 days, to compensate for past errors, and every common year thereafter was to have 365 days. Every fourth year, starting with 45 BCE, was to be designated a leap year of 366 days. The Babylonians used a nonastronomical, seven-day interval, the week, which was adopted by the Jews. The seventh day, the Sabbath, was given a religious significance. Independently, the Romans associated a cycle of seven days with the Sun, the Moon, and the five known planets. Their names became attached to the days of the week: Sunday (dies solis, "Sun's day"), Monday (dies lunae, "Moon's day"), and Saturday (dies Saturni, "Saturn's day") retain their names derived directly from the Roman culture, and Tuesday ("Tiw's day"), Wednesday ("Woden's day"), Thursday ("Thor's day"), and Friday ("Frigg's day") are derived from the Germanic equivalents of Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, and Venus, respectively.
(source: http://www.hermetic.ch/cal_stud/grol.htm)
According to Pliny the Elder, there were three calendars in the Roman Empire at the time of Julius Caesar: the Chaldean, Egyptian, and Greek calendars. All of these calendars could trace their origins to the Babylonian calendar. Pliny the Elder also tells us that Julius Caesar adopted a strictly solar calendar on the advice of the Egyptian (Jewish) astronomer Sosigenes of Alexandria. Sosigenes calculated the Solar Year to have 365.25 days (365 days and 6 hours). To accomodate this quarter-day discrepancy, Julius Caesar adopted a calendar of 365 days like the Egyptians, but made every fourth year a leap year on the advice of Egyptian astronomer Sosigenes of Alexandria. This new calendar was strictly based on the Solar Year, with no attempt to reconcile it with the Lunar Month. (source: http://ephemeris.com/history/romans.html)
Introduced by Julius Caesar in 46 BCE and created by Caesar's resident expert in such matters, a Greek named Sosigenes set up the months as we now know them and added an extra day in February every fourth year.
(source: http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/J/Julian_calendar.html)
The foundation of Alexandria was a masterpiece. In his Greek city on the Nile, Caesar reserved a place for Jewish colonists; the Jew was welcomed at Alexandria from the first. In the time of Philo the Egyptian Jews numbered more than a million, i.e. one man in eight of the inhabitants of the Delta was a Jew; while at Alexandria a whole "quarter" of the city was given to Jewish colonists. The Jews of Alexandria and the Delta remained loyal to their faith.
(source: http://www.meetingpoint.org/~swete/index.htm?art36_a.html~swete)
That the ancient Jews knew the precise length of the solar year is demonstrated by the genera of the word Oriens (meaning spiritual east) as 0 = 6, R = 100, I = 10, E = 5, N = 50, and S = 200 equals 371 or 365 (days) plus 6 (hours). Sosigenes, a Babylonian Jew, sold this secret of the length of the solar year to Julius Caesar. At that time the exoteric calendar was so far deteriorated that January 1st would have fallen on October 13th. Caesar reformed the calendar to conform it with the seasons again by inserting two extra months, one of 33 days and one of 34 days between November and December of that year and adding a 23 day month to the preceding February. The extra 90 days would fix the next calendar year to 365 days and a leap year every fourth year. This arrangement has lasted to modern times, and is known as the Julian Calendar. In the first Julian year the month of December was extended from 30 to 31 days. The Chaldean calendar shows a third astronomical relationship, this one in relation to our "great Platonic Year" cycle of 25,920 years. Each year as the sun passes on its yearly cycle of 365 days through each zodiacal house, it returns to its starting point, the vernal or spring equinox. As previously discussed, this point precesses one degree every seventy-two years and through one sign of the zodiac every 2,160 years. This is our familiar Messianic cycle. Thus, the vernal equinox stands in one zodiacal house for a period of 2,160 years. (source: http://www.vermontel.net/~vtsophia/wis1.htm)
You wrote also wrote:
YHWHPeople@aol.com wrote:
You are not the first one that has found pinpointed weekly sabbaths in history which support lunar Sabbaths. If the 15th was a weekly Sabbath, the day after Adam died, then the eighth 22nd and 29 were also weekly Sabbaths, this also is an absolute. So I thank you for another pinpointed weekly Sabbath in history that was by the moon.
Br. Arnold, getting back to your favorite contemporary witness of Yahusha our Messiah, ie, Philo ---- let's see what else your witness documents for us. We know that pride goeth before a fall -- I am curious to see if it will be with graciousness or with stubborness.
From The Wars of the Jews, Josephus gives us many EXACT dates of 70 CE, the year of the destruction of Jersalem:
Josephus Wars of the Jews
6:1:3] This attack was made upon the first day of the month Panemus [Tamuz] (Thursday, June 28th/Tammuz 1st, 70 CE - this would also make Tammuz 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th on Thursdays). ..... Then night came upon both sides, and put an end to this struggle for the present; however, that night the wall was so shaken by the battering rams in that place where John had used his stratagem before, and had undermined their banks, that the ground then gave way, and the wall fell down suddenly.
6:1:6] ..... As for the rest of his partners, the Jews dashed three of them to pieces with stones, and slew them as they were gotten up to the top of the wall; the other eight being wounded, were pulled down, and carried back to the camp. These things were done upon the third day of the month Panemus [Tamuz] (Sabbath, June 30th/Tammuz 3rd, 70 CE).
6:1:7] Now two days afterward (Monday, July 2nd/Tammuz 5th, 70 CE) twelve of those men that were on the forefront, and kept watch upon the banks, got together, and called to them the standard-bearer of the fifth legion, and two others of a troop of horsemen, and one trumpeter; these went without noise, about the ninth hour of the night, through the ruins, to the tower of Antonia; and when they had cut the throats of the first guards of the place, as they were asleep, they got possession of the wall, ..... At length the Jews' violent zeal was too hard for the Romans' skill, and the battle already inclined entirely that way; for the fight had lasted from the ninth hour of the night till the seventh hour of the day, .....
6:2:1
01] AND now Titus gave orders to his soldiers that were with him to dig up the foundations of the tower of Antonia, and make him a ready passage for his army to come up; while he himself had Josephus brought to him, (for he had been informed that on that very day, which was the seventeenth day (5) of Panemus [Sabbath, July 14th/Tammuz 17th, 70 CE], the sacrifice called "the Daily Sacrifice" had failed, and had not been offered to God, for want of men to offer it, and that the people were grievously troubled at it,) and commanded him to say the same things to John that he had said before, that if he had any malicious inclination for fighting, he might come out with as many of his men as he pleased, in order to fight, without the danger of destroying either his city or temple; but that he desired he would not defile the temple, nor thereby offend against God. That he might, if he pleased, offer the sacrifices which were now discontinuned by any of the Jews whom he should pitch upon. Upon this Josephus stood in such a place where he might be heard, not by John only, but by many more, and then declared to them what Caesar had given him in charge, and this in the Hebrew language. (6)
(5) This was a remarkable day indeed, the seventeenth of Paneruns. [Sabbath Tamuz 17th] A.D. 70, when, according to Daniel's prediction, six hundred and six years before, the Romans "in half a week caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease," Daniel 9:27. For from the month of February, A.D. 66, about which time Vespasian entered on this war, to this very time, was just three years and a half. See Bishop Lloyd's Tables of Chronology, published by Mr. Marshall, on this year. Nor is it to be omitted, what year nearly confirms this duration of the war, that four years before the war begun was somewhat above seven years five months before the destruction of Jerusalem, ch. 5. sect. 3.
(6) The same that in the New Testament is always so called, and was then the common language of the Jews in Judea, which was the Syriac dialect.
6:2:9
09] ..... they (Jews) set the north-west cloister, which was joined to the tower of Antonia, on fire, and after that brake off about twenty cubits of that cloister, and thereby made a beginning in burning the sanctuary; two days after which, or on the twenty-fourth day of the forenamed month, [Panemus or Tamuz] (Sabbath, July 21st/Tammuz 24th, 70 CE) .....
6:3:1
01] BUT now the seditious that were in the temple did every day openly endeavor to beat off the soldiers that were upon the banks, and on the twenty-seventh day of the forenamed month [Panemus or Tamuz] (Tuesday, July 24th/Tammuz 27th, 70 CE) contrived such a stratagem ..... 03] But then, on the next day (Wednesday, July 25th/ Tammuz 28th, 70 CE), Titus commanded part of his army to quench the fire, and to make a road for the more easy marching up of the legions, while he himself gathered the commanders together. .....
6:4:1,4,5
01] AND now two of the legions had completed their banks on the eighth day of the month Lous [Ab] (Friday, August 3rd/Av 8th, 70 CE - which would also make Av 15th, 22nd, and 29th Fridays). Whereupon Titus gave orders that the battering rams should be brought, and set over against the western edifice of the inner temple; for before these were brought, the firmest of all the other engines had battered the wall for six days together without ceasing, without making any impression upon it; but the vast largeness and strong connexion of the stones were superior to that engine, and to the other battering rams also. 04] Now it is true that on this day the Jews were so weary, and under such consternation, that they refrained from any attacks. But on the next day (Sabbath, August 4th/Ab 9th, 70 CE) they gathered their whole force together, and ran upon those that guarded the outward court of the temple very boldly, through the east gate, and this about the second hour of the day (8am). ..... But as the Romans were going off, the Jews turned upon them, and fought them; and as those Romans came back upon them, they retreated again, until about the fifth hour of the day they were overborne (11am), and shut themselves up in the inner [court of the] temple. 05] So Titus retired into the tower of Antonia, and resolved to storm the temple the next day (Sunday, August 5th/Ab 10th, 70 CE), early in the morning, with his whole army, and to encamp round about the holy house. But as for that house, God had, for certain, long ago doomed it to the fire; and now that fatal day was come, according to the revolution of ages; it was the tenth day of the month Lous [Ab] (Sunday, August 5th/Av 10th, 70 CE), upon which it was formerly burnt by the king of Babylon; .....
6:5:3
03] Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them. Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus (Sabbath, April 7th/Nissan 8th, 70 CE), (21) [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it. At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them. Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius [Jyar] (Sunday, May 20th/ Iyyar 21st, 70 CE - which would make Iyyar 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th Mondays), a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence." But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!"
(21) Since Josephus still uses the Syro-Macedonian month Xanthicus for the Jewish month Nisan, this eighth (Sabbath), or, as Nicephorus reads it, this ninth of Xanthicus or Nisan was almost a week before the passover, on the fourteenth (Friday); about which time we learn from St. John that many used to go "out of the country to Jerusalem to purify themselves," John 11:55, with 12:1; in agreement with Josephus also, B. V. ch. 3. sect. 1. And it might well be, that in the sight of these this extraordinary light might appear.
6:6:1 AND now the Romans, upon the flight of the seditious into the city, and upon the burning of the holy house itself, and of all the buildings round about it ..... On the fifth day afterward (Thursday, July 19th/Tammuz 22nd, 70 CE), the priests that were pined with the famine came down, and when they were brought to Titus by the guards .....
6:6:3,4 ..... So he gave orders to the soldiers both to burn and to plunder the city; who did nothing indeed that day (Sabbath, July 14th/Tammuz 17th, 70 CE); but on the next day (Sunday, July 15th/Tammuz 18th, 70 CE) they set fire to the repository of the archives, to Acra, to the council-house, and to the place called Ophlas; at which time the fire proceeded as far as the palace of queen Helena, which was in the middle of Acra; the lanes also were burnt down ..... 04] On the same day it was that the sons and brethren of Izates the king, together with many others of the eminent men of the populace, got together there, and besought Caesar to give them his right hand for their security .....
6:8:1,4,5 NOW when Caesar perceived that the upper city was so steep that it could not possibly be taken without raising banks against it, he distributed the several parts of that work among his army, and this on the twentieth day of the month Lous [Ab] (Wednesday, August 15th/Ab 20th, 70 CE). 04] And now were the banks finished on the seventh day of the month Gorpieus, [Elul], (Sabbath, September 1st/Elul 7th, 70 CE - which would make Elul 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th Sundays) in eighteen days' time, when the Romans brought their machines against the wall. But for the seditious, some of them, as despairing of saving the city, retired from the wall to the citadel ..... 05] ..... And truly so it happened, that though the slayers left off at the evening, yet did the fire greatly prevail in the night; and as all was burning, came that eighth day of the month Gorpieus [Elul] (Sunday, September 2nd/Elul 8th, 70 CE) upon Jerusalem, a city that had been liable to so many miseries during this siege .....
6:10:1
01] AND thus was Jerusalem taken, in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, on the eighth day of the month Gorpeius [Elul] (Sunday, September 2nd/Elul 8th, 70 CE). It had been taken five times before, though this was the second time of its desolation; for Shishak, the king of Egypt, and after him Antiochus, and after him Pompey, and after them Sosius and Herod, took the city, but still preserved it; but before all these, the king of Babylon conquered it, and made it desolate, one thousand four hundred and sixty-eight years and six months after it was built. But he who first built it. Was a potent man among the Canaanites, and is in our own tongue called [Melchisedek], the Righteous King, for such he really was; on which account he was [there] the first priest of God, and first built a temple [there], and called the city Jerusalem, which was formerly called Salem. However, David, the king of the Jews, ejected the Canaanites, and set-tied his own people therein. It was demolished entirely by the Babylonians, four hundred and seventy-seven years and six months after him. And from king David, who was the first of the Jews who reigned therein, to this destruction under Titus, were one thousand one hundred and seventy-nine years; but from its first building, till this last destruction, were two thousand one hundred and seventy-seven years; yet hath not its great antiquity, nor its vast riches, nor the diffusion of its nation over all the habitable earth, nor the greatness of the veneration paid to it on a religious account, been sufficient to preserve it from being destroyed. And thus ended the siege of Jerusalem.
I do hope you appreciate that your own witness has shot all kinds of holes in your fallacious Lunar Sabbath theory. I stand with your witness testifying against you. I look forward to your tendering on both your offers.
YashaNa.
Br. Paul
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Davide
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« Reply #18 on Jun 9, 2005, 11:54am » | |
Message re-posted from The True Sabbaths And New Moons Group:
From: PWC <pwc17@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat May 7, 2005 10:11 pm
Subject: Re: [TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons] Lunar Sabbath Fallacy
To All,
My apologies I referred to Philo, when in fact I meant to refer to Josephus, and his Wars of the Jews.
YashaNa.
Br. Paul
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Davide
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« Reply #19 on Jun 9, 2005, 11:57am » | |
Message re-posted from The True Sabbaths And New Moons Group:
From: PWC <pwc17@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 8:05 am
Subject: Re: [TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons] Lunar Sabbath Fallacy
Dear Br. Arnold,
Its been almost a month now and you have still not answered. Having health problems myself, I hope your delay has not been because of ill health. Please admit or deny the evidence I have presented so that we may either resolve the dispute or so that we may continue presenting evidence until the dispute is finally resolved. I believe that you do desire to resolve this dispute, so I also believe that you will reply in timely fashion. Failure to do so would only make look like you have something to hide and are afraid of presenting all your "evidence"; after all you have already failed to provide scripture on all the 60 odd lunar sabbaths you claim you have pinpointed.
YashaNa.
Br. Paul
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Davide
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« Reply #20 on Jun 9, 2005, 12:01pm » | |
Message re-posted from The True Sabbaths And New Moons Group:
From: YHWHPeople@aol.com
Date: Sat Jun 4, 2005 6:46 am
Subject: Re: [TheTrueSabbathsAndNewMoons] Lunar Sabbath Fallacy
Paul wrote,
"Dear Br. Arnold,
Its been almost a month now and you have still not answered. Having health problems myself, I hope your delay has not been because of ill health. Please admit or deny the evidence I have presented so that we may either resolve the dispute or so that we may continue presenting evidence until the dispute is finally resolved. I believe that you do desire to resolve this dispute, so I also believe that you will reply in timely fashion. Failure to do so would only make look like you have something to hide and are afraid of presenting all your "evidence"; after all you have already failed to provide scripture on all the 60 odd lunar sabbaths you claim you have pinpointed.
YashaNa.
Br. Paul"
RESPONSE. Dear brother Paul, I really don't have the time to keep presenting the truth about lunar Sabbaths to you and if you cannot accept the simple truth found in Exodus the 16th chapter where the weekly Sabbaths are on the 8th ,15th, 22nd, and 29th of the moon then there's no need of me trying to show you the 72 weekly pinpointed Sabbaths, I'm afraid you just want to argue and I really don't have the time because there are many people out there receiving this truth.
I presented Scripture after Scripture in my book which I ask you to read at www.lunarsabbath.org which proves the weekly Sabbath is by the moon and not by a pagan Roman calendar and also showed how Pentecost proves that they had to observe lunar Sabbaths in our Saviour's day.
I asked the question, “how could the Greek speaking Jews who read from the Septuagint, be at Pentecost in the book of Acts at the same time as the Hebrew speaking Jews who read from the Hebrew texts without both beginning the count from the self same day?” Then I explained how the Septuagint teaches to begin the count “every year” from the morrow after the 15th and the Hebrew texts teaches to begin the count from the morrow after the weekly Sabbath, which had to be the 15th and by both being at Pentecost on the same day proves they were keeping lunar Sabbaths.
Also showed from Scripture, nature, mathematical count, history, the International Dateline and many other infallible proofs, but it seems you have turned a deaf ear to what the Scripture so clearly teaches, that I don't won't to waste any more time on you. I will do this one thing, if you would like to debate the subject live on radio, we will do so and gave you a chance to present your doctrine and we will present ours, in equal five-minute intervals, for ever one to hear and judge. Please let me know what you decide, and I will arrange it. I don't mean to sound hard on you, but this is the way I feel at this point.
Brother Arnold
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eliyah
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Karma: 0 | | Re: Seventh Day Sabbath or Lunar Sabbath?
« Reply #21 on Mar 5, 2006, 7:01am » | |
Greetings Bro. Arnold,
Its Me, Elyah C.= Eljah C.
Remember ?
Elijah ( Eliyah) Collette
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