Conjunction, or First Crescent, or Full Moon?

[Davide]

Message re-posted from The True Sabbaths And New Moons Group:

From: PWC <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 2:03 pm

Dear Br. Matthew,
My reply follows your post.

YashaNa.
Br. Paul

erich matthew janzen <[e-mail]> wrote:
Dear Paul,

Enoch 77:14 is plain in showing the new moon is not the full moon, anyone reading it can see this clearly.

"And when it is wholly extinguished, its light is consumed in heaven; and on the first day it is called the new moon, for on that day light is received into it." [Enoch 77:14]

Verse 15 then goes on to tell us about the moon becoming completed. Verse 15 is not identifying the new moon of vs. 14, but rather going on to show something that occurs after the new moon, when the moon becomes completed, i.e. full.

"It becomes precisely completed on the day that the sun descends into the west, while the moon ascends at night from the east. The moon then shines all the night, until the sun rises before it; when the moon disappears in turn before the sun." [Enoch 77:15-16]

Verse 17 then has the moon going back to being wholly extinguished.

"Where light comes to the moon, there again it decreases, until all its light is extinguished, and the days of the moon pass away." [Enoch 77:17]

Notice how it speaks of the time of extinguishment that the days of the moon pass away, i.e the end of the month or moon. This is further corroborated by Enoch 78:2-3.

"He showed me every ordinance respecting these, which takes place at all times and in all seasons under every influence, in all years, at the arrival and under the rule of each, during every month and every week. He shewed me also the decrease of the moon, which is effected in the sixth gate; for in that sixth gate is its light consumed. From this is the beginning of the month..."

The beginning of the month is from the light begin consumed. Enoch, just like Psalms 81:3-6 prove that the full moon is not the new moon at all. The new moon is rather the first day of the rebuilding moon after the period of its conjunction with the sun.

Matthew Janzen


@@@@@@

Dear Br. Matthew,
Your response is pretty normal for people who have not taken the time to discover what the words they have been reading really mean. Extinguish is quite different from wane. Extinguish connotes a swift or sudden loss of light and wane connotes the slowness of the course of natural loss of light.
You have to ask yourself what could possibly swiftly take away the moon's light. At Full/New Moon that could be accomplished by a total Lunar Eclipse. This is the only possible time at which the moon's light might be swiftly taken away from it without the moon first waning.

To further demonstrate in plain language that the Full Moon is the New Moon and the beginning of the lunar monthly cycle please contemplate the following:

Enoch 72:1-5
01] After this law I beheld another law of an inferior luminary, the name of which is the moon, and the orb of which is as the orb (globe) of heaven. 02] Its chariot, which it secretly ascends, the wind blows; and light is given to it by measure. 03] Every month at its exit and entrance it becomes changed; and its periods are as the periods of the sun. And when in like manner its light is to exist (ie, full), its light is a seventh portion from the light of the sun. 04] Thus it rises, and at its commencement towards the east goes forth for thirty days. 05] At that time it appears, and becomes to you the beginning of the month. Thirty days it is with the sun in the gate from which the sun goes forth.

The following excerpt from the Gnostic Book of Sophia demonstrates that the Full Moon is the New Moon is the first day of the lunar monthly cycle. Gnostic writings have many ties to the Alexandrian Jews of Philo's time:

Pistis Sophia: Book One - Chapters 2,3
{ essenes.crosswinds.net/pistis1.html
or www.webcom.com/~gnosis/library/psoph1.htm}
Chpt 2
It happened as the disciples were sitting with one another upon the Mount of Olives, as they spoke these words they rejoiced with great joy, and they were very jubilant, and they said to one another: "We are blessed beyond all men who are on earth because the Saviour has revealed these things to us, and we have received the pleroma* and the whole completion." As they were saying these things to one another, Yahusha was sitting at a short distance from them. {*Literally, "fullness." The Pleroma is the dwelling place of spirit, the non material world.}

It happened, however, on the 1st of the moon in the month of Tobe*, which is the day on which the moon becomes full, now on that day when the sun had risen on its path, there came forth after it a great power of light, giving a very great light, and there was no measure to its accompanying light, for it came forth from the Light of Lights, exceedingly, with light to which there was no measure.

Chtp 3
And the disciples gazed after him, and not one of them spoke until he had reached heaven, but they all kept a great silence. Now these things happened on the 1st of the moon, on the day on which it is full in the month of Tobe*.

*Tobe corresponds to the fifth month of the Coptic calendar; dating back to Imhotep c. 2670 BCE it is considered the oldest surviving calendar in continuous use. This particular astronomical calendar is based on the heliacal rising of the star Sirius in the constellation Canis Major. This date would range from January 9 to February 8.

Job 17:1 My spirit is consumed, my days are extinct (H # 2193), The grave is ready for me.

Strong's Hebrew # 2193 zaw-ak' A primitive root; to extinguish: - be extinct.
BDB Definition: 1) to extinguish, be extinct, be extinguished 1a) (Niphal) to be extinguished

Isaiah 43:16-18
16] Thus saith Yahuah, who maketh a way in the sea, and a path in the mighty waters; 17] Who bringeth forth the chariot and horse, the army and the power--they lie down together, they shall not rise, they are extinct (H # 1846), they are quenched (H # 3518) as a wick: 18] Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old.

Strong's Hebrew # 1846 daw-ak' A primitive root; to be extinguished; figuratively to expire or be dried up: - be extinct, consumed, put out, quenched.
BDB Definition: 1) to go out, be extinguished, dry up 1a) (Qal) to go out, be extinguished 1b) (Niphal) to be made extinct, be dried up 1c) (Pual) to be extinguished, be quenched

Strong's Hebrew # 3518 kaw-baw' A primitive root; to expire or (causatively) to extinguish (fire, light, anger): - go (put) out, quench.
BDB Definition: 1) to quench, put out, be put out, be quenched, be extinguished 1a) (Qal) to be quenched, be extinguished 1b) (Piel) to quench, extinguish

Consume (Webster's 1803 Dictionary):
[L., to take. In English we say, it takes up time, that is, it consumes time.]
1. To destroy, by separating the parts of a thing, by decomposition, as by fire, or eating, devouring, and annihilating the form of a substance. Fire consumes wood, coal, stubble; animals consume flesh and vegetables.
2. To destroy by dissipating or by use; to expend; to waste; to squander; as, to consume an estate.
3. To spend; to cause to pass away, as time; as, to consume the day in idleness.
4. To cause to disappear; to waste slowly.
5. To destroy; to bring to utter ruin; to exterminate.

Extinguish (Webster's 1803 Dictionary):
1. To put out; to quench; to suffocate; to destroy; as, to extinguish fire or flame.
2. To destroy; to put an end to; as, to extinguish love or hatred in the breast; to extinguish desire or hope; to extinguish a claim or title.
3. To cloud or obscure by superior splendor.
4. To put an end to, by union or consolidation.

The following excerpt demonstrates how the superior splendor of the sun obscures the light of the moon:

Book of the Bee Chpt 38
(edited and translated by Earnest A. Wallis Budge, M.A. 1886)
Now the moon is stronger in its light than all the stars, but it is immediately quenched and its light dissipated by one small ray of the sun.
(http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/bb/)

Quench (Webster's 1803 Dictionary):
1. To extinguish; to put out; as, to quench flame.
2. To still; to quiet; to repress; as, to quench a passion or emotion.
3. To allay or extinguish; as, to quench thirst.
4. To destroy.
5. To check; to stifle; as, to quench the Spirit. (1 Thessalonians 5).

Quench (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia):
Where the word is used of fire or of thirst it has the usual meaning: "to allay," "to extinguish," "to suppress," "to cool." In the Old Testament it is frequently applied to the affections and passions (see 2 Ki 22:17; Song 8:7; Isa 42:3; Jer 4:4; Jer 21:12). Quenching the coal or the light of Israel may mean slaying a dear one or a brilliant leader. In the New Testament it is also used figuratively, as in Eph 6:16 the shield of faith quenches the fiery darts of the evil one. In Mar 9:48, sbe nnumi, and its derivative are applied with reference to Gehenna (translated "hell"). The same word is also used of resisting the gifts of the Holy Spirit in 1 Th 5:19.

Quenchless (Webster's 1803 Dictionary): That cannot be quenched or repressed; inextinguishable; as quenchless fire or fury.

Extinct (See also Extinguish) (Webster's 1803 Dictionary):
1. Extinguished; put out; quenched; as, fire, light or a lamp is extinct.
2. Being at an end; having no survivor; as, a family or race is extinct.
3. Being at an end; having ceased. The enmity between the families is extinct. (My days are extinct. Job 17:1)
4. Being at an end, by abolition or disuse; having no force; as, the law is extinct.

Extinct (ISBE): In Job 17:1, "My days are extinct" (za akh (in Niphal)) and in Isaiah 43:17, "They are extinct" (da akh), the word "extinct" should be recognized as a form of the participle, equivalent to "extinguished," so that in both passages an action, not merely a state, is indicated.

Enoch 81:9-11
09] This is the ordinance of the stars, which set in their places, in their seasons, in their periods, in their days, and in their months. 10] These are the names of the those who conduct them, who watch and enter in their seasons, according to their ordinance in their periods, in their months, in the times of their influence, and in their stations. 11] Four conductors of them first enter, who separate the four quarters of the year. After these, twelve conductors of their classes, who separate the months and the year into three hundred and sixty-four days, with the leaders of a thousand, who distinguish between the days, as well as between the four additional ones; which, as conductors, divide the four quarters of the year.

YashaNa.
Br. Paul

[Davide]

Message re-posted from The True Sabbaths And New Moons Group:

From: [e-mail]
Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 4:10 pm

Paul writes,

Enoch 72:1-5

01] After this law I beheld another law of an inferior luminary, the name of which is the moon, and the orb of which is as the orb (globe) of heaven. 02] Its chariot, which it secretly ascends, the wind blows; and light is given to it by measure. 03] Every month at its exit and entrance it becomes changed; and its periods are as the periods of the sun. And when in like manner its light is to exist (ie, full), its light is a seventh portion from the light of the sun. 04] Thus it rises, and at its commencement towards the east goes forth for thirty days. 05] At that time it appears, and becomes to you the beginning of the month. Thirty days it is with the sun in the gate from which the sun goes forth.


RESPONSE; Brother Paul, your interpretation of this particular translation of Enoch in the above is in error because the full moon does NOT rise in the WEST and it’s commencement is NOT toward the EAST, the full moon rises in the “east”, and at its commencement is towards the “WEST”, NOT the “east”, but the new moon does rise in the “west” and it’s commencement is towards the “east” for thirty days, not vise versa, just as ENOCH says in the above says.

Ps. you wrote, (i.e. full ), but exist does not mean full.

Brother Arnold

[Davide]

Message re-posted from The True Sabbaths And New Moons Group:

From: "Herb Crow" <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 4:11 pm

YashaNa. (Br. Paul)
I am reading your email sent to the group in reply to a Br. Matthews
email, and if I understand your comments, your point is “To further
demonstrate in plain language that the Full Moon is the New Moon and the
beginning of the lunar monthly cycle please contemplate the following:” Ok,
I can see why you might be promoting the full moon as the “new moon” of the
Israelites, but obviously you are using personal comments against your
“desire of doctrine”, but don’t seem to see this. How else can one explain
a part of your supporting statement you provided and as if in agreement with
your "desire"? Ponder one part of a statement (argument) you provided; “You
have to ask yourself what could possibly swiftly take away the moon's light.
At Full/New Moon that could be accomplished by a total Lunar Eclipse. This
is the only possible time at which the moon's light might be swiftly taken
away from it without the moon first waning.” Now, how does this prove the
full moon is the Israelite new moon? What I see is a very different topic;
lunar eclipse. Was your idea to identify the lunar eclipse with the mid
part of an old Israelite month period? If it was you still don’t accept the
basic idea behind “new“, as unseen prior to the moment. There is no logical
way to suggest a full moon is new, or unseen prior to the moment. If this
is an example of your logic, then I can see why others are wondering why you
are so blinded on this issue wrapped around the word “new“.

I will assume you want me to go on to reveal other points of your comments
that are not speaking to your logic and desire well. Take this part from
Enoch 72:1-5 you provided as support for your desire: “03] Every month at
its exit and entrance it becomes changed; and its periods are as the periods
of the sun. And when in like manner its light is to exist [ie, full], its
light is a seventh portion from the light of the sun.” Notice I changed the
( ) to [ ] since you have added an opinion to a text. Also notice the
statement is about a month’s exit and entrance.

The words exit and entrance are about old and new concepts. We associate
concepts about new and old with the natural process of aging, when something
is first “seen”, and then not “seen”. Clearly the rest of the text is
dealing with the same concepts of new and old, related to the appearance and
disappearance of light upon the moon’s surface. A new moon would appear as
light appears on it’s surface, and be old when the light, or life upon it’s
face fades away. At some point the old moon would be said to be dead and
awaiting "rebirth" since no light is seen upon it, which is how this text
from Enoch 72 reads to one not wanting to promote a different “desire of
doctrine”. For some reason your "desire" has blinded you to the theme of
the text and you are not reading simple statements like; “04] Thus it rises,
and at its commencement towards the east goes forth for thirty days.”, which
I have taken from your quote of recorded words of truth. Again, the theme
of the "recorded words of truth" are about the life cycle of the light upon
the moon that ends, or completes in “thirty days”, which was the old
Israelite standard. Today we would argue or debate 28.5 days as the life
cycle of light upon the moon’s face, suggesting the days of light have grown
shorter over the centuries.

Should I continue to use your words against your “desire of doctrine”? I am
thinking I need not continue since the weakness of your logic is clear
enough, but the actual issue is why do you want the moon’s cycle of light to
be “new” starting with the full moon period? Normally a person that wants a
different standard then what has been used for more then a hundred years has
a reason for promoting a different, or “new” standard, but I hesitate to use
the word “new” since that gives the impression your desire has “not been
seen before“. Since your desire has been promoted by many long before your
“birth”, it is not actually correct to say it is “new”, as if a new moon, or
month standard not seen before. Since we are creatures of “time” limits, it
is not possible for us to see a month, or new moon until it makes itself
visible, but your logic suggests a full moon is new, which is not possible
(or logical) due to the fact a full moon appears full for at least two
evenings and often three. This brings me back to your “desire” and why you
would want to govern your life by a different standard then the ancient
Israelite lunar cycle promoted by Mosheh (Moses)? Is there some sort of
advantage to starting the month 30 day count with one of the full moon
evenings? Which evening would be the first day of your month in a full moon
standard? No one I know can tell me which full moon day is more full then
another, unless a scientist using math. Math is a highly educated skill,
especially when one is addressing using math in reference to a full moon
event, but someone of the highly educated telescope skills and device might
disagree and be able to teach how to observe the fullest full moon moment.
This seems to me to be the direction you are going with your desire for a
different lunar standard.

In any case, I can see why a person would want to use a different standard
for time keeping if it provides an advantage in the current age of mankind
among empire builders. So my question to you as a friend of interest is
what advantages does the full moon standard provide? Have you found the
natural world governs itself by the full moon standard? If so, in what ways
have you observed this? Do you farm or garden by the full moon standard?
Do you hunt or raise food animals by this standard? So far my observations
had taught me to use the ancient Hebrew lunar “new moon” standard since it
seems to provide an advantage to basic life food production methods and
results. This was also the reason why Mosheh taught the Israelites to use
it, suggesting Egypt had adopted a slightly different time keeping method.
If the Egyptians were using the same lunar time keeping method, then why
would Mosheh feel the need to teach the Israelites a different way, since
they would have already known of it and be using it? Remember when Mosheh
asked Pharaoh for a rest day in seven? He seemed to think the idea was
ridiculous, suggesting the Egyptian rest day or worship day period was
longer. I remember reading the Roman calendar was once 10 days long for
each week, so maybe there is a hint in that back to the Egyptian week length
period. I have not researched this all that much, so I am only guessing at
this point from a few clues I have mentioned. Even so, what advantage have
you found for using the Full Moon standard, and counting 30 days for a
month? I suppose I am curious why you are promoting this standard as
opposed to the obvious Hebrew one that begins with “new“ light upon the
moon‘s surface.
Tsavah

[Davide]

Message re-posted from The True Sabbaths And New Moons Group:

From: PWC <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 7:50 am

Dear Br. Tsavah,
I have inserted my responses into your post.

YashaNa.
Br. Paul

Herb Crow <[e-mail]> wrote:
YashaNa. (Br. Paul)

First off - I find it a bit incredible that a man of such professed scholarship, such as yourself, would confuse my salutation with my name. YashaNa means Hosanna. It comes from Matthew 21:9: And the multitudes that went before him, and that followed, cried, saying, YashaNa to the son of David: Blessed - he that cometh in the name of Yahuah; YashaNa in the highest. It is a declaration of salvation, of victory in Yahusha our Messiah.

I am reading your email sent to the group in reply to a Br. Matthews email, and if I understand your comments, your point is "To further demonstrate in plain language that the Full Moon is the New Moon and the beginning of the lunar monthly cycle please contemplate the following:" Ok, I can see why you might be promoting the full moon as the "new moon" of the Israelites, but obviously you are using personal comments against your "desire of doctrine", but don’t seem to see this. How else can one explain a part of your supporting statement you provided and as if in agreement with your "desire"? Ponder one part of a statement (argument) you provided; "You have to ask yourself what could possibly swiftly take away the moon's light. At Full/New Moon that could be accomplished by a total Lunar Eclipse. This is the only possible time at which the moon's light might be swiftly taken away from it without the moon first waning." Now, how does this prove the full moon is the Israelite new moon? What I see is a very different topic; lunar eclipse. Was your idea to identify the lunar eclipse with the mid part of an old Israelite month period? If it was you still don’t accept the basic idea behind "new", as unseen prior to the moment. There is no logical way to suggest a full moon is new, or unseen prior to the moment. If this is an example of your logic, then I can see why others are wondering why you are so blinded on this issue wrapped around the word "new".

I see, just as in the past, you offer many words and SO LITTLE scripture in rebuttal to what you disagree with. Philosophy is not an exposition of scripture. It is an exposition ON scripture. If you would, please present all the scripture in your favor that demonstrates that a crescent moon is called the new moon, and not merely the first phase - according to Enoch there is a difference between the first phase and the new moon. It seems that you are very deeply indoctrinated into believing that first phase means new moon; just as I am sure that you are confused over morning being a time of early daylight, when in fact it is a time of darkness. I cannot say where or when the confusion over mixing these terms happened, but I know it did happen.

Perhaps you would be so kind as to answer any of my questions to Br. Carlo's post where he had listed many scriptures about the moon rebuilding. For instance, when is man a new creation, when he is yet dust of the ground, or after he is fully formed? When was woman a new creation, while she was yet a rib in Adam's side, or after she was fully formed? If you bought a new can of coffee, would you take it home and open it and wait for it to fill up by itself or would you expect it to be full already? If you go to a car dealer to buy a new car do you want one that comes with all the unassembled pieces in a large box, or do you want one that is completely formed and assembled? - when exactly does it become a "new" car? - or how about a new house - is it a new house while yet laying in a pile of lumber on a lot, or is "new" after construction is completed? When do you have a new doctor - the day he enrolls for his first class or after completion of all the curriculum being wholly trained and graduated. All of these things are new upon completion, and not before. Why would you imagine that the moon would be any different?

I will assume you want me to go on to reveal other points of your comments that are not speaking to your logic and desire well. Take this part from Enoch 72:1-5 you provided as support for your desire: "03] Every month at its exit and entrance it becomes changed; and its periods are as the periods of the sun. And when in like manner its light is to exist [ie, full], its light is a seventh portion from the light of the sun." Notice I changed the ( ) to [ ] since you have added an opinion to a text. Also notice the statement is about a month’s exit and entrance.

I would not be so presumptuous as you'd like me to be to make any claim of adding my own words to the text of Enoch 72. Please take notice of footnote # 79 in verse 3.The following passage from Enoch 72 is taken from a site maintained by Br. James Trimm. I ASSUME that you know who he is. I also ASSUME that you will give defference to his scholarship as he has recently successfully completed a new translation of the bible. I will also ASSUME that you recoginize that even he recognizes the veracity of Books found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, such as Enoch and Jubilees, and that he advocates them as part of the basis of our Messianic faith.

Enoch 72:1-10 (http://www.nazarene.net/enoch/1enoch72.htm)

01] After this law I beheld another law of an inferior luminary, the name of which is the moon, and the orb of which is as the orb of heaven. 02] Its chariot, which it secretly ascends, the wind blows; and light is given to it by measure. 03] Every month at its exit and entrance it becomes changed; and its periods are as the periods of the sun. And when in like manner its light is to exist, (79) its light is a seventh portion from the light of the sun. 04] Thus it rises, and at its commencement towards the east goes forth for thirty days. 05] At that time it appears, and becomes to you the beginning of the month. Thirty days it is with the sun in the gate from which the sun goes forth. 06] Half of it is in extent seven portions, one half; and the whole of its orb is void of light, except a seventh portion out of the fourteen portions of its light. And in a day it receives a seventh portion, or half that portion, of its light. Its light is by sevens, by one portion, and by the half of a portion. Its sets with the sun. 07] And when the sun rises, the moon rises with it; receiving half a portion of light. 08] On that night, when it commences its period, previously to the day of the month, the moon sets with the sun. 09] And on that night it is dark in its fourteen portions, that is, in each half; but it rises on that day with one seventh portion precisely, and in its progress declines from the rising of the sun. 10] During the remainder of its period its light increases to fourteen portions. (79) And when in…is to exist. I.e., when the moon is full (Knibb, p. 171).[first ref: Enoch 10:10 (http://www.nazarene.net/enoch/1enoch10.htm) Michael A. Knibb, ed. and trans., The Ethiopic Book of Enoch [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1978]

The words exit and entrance are about old and new concepts. We associate concepts about new and old with the natural process of aging, when something is first "seen", and then not "seen". Clearly the rest of the text is dealing with the same concepts of new and old, related to the appearance and disappearance of light upon the moon’s surface. A new moon would appear as light appears on it’s surface, and be old when the light, or life upon it’s face fades away. At some point the old moon would be said to be dead and awaiting "rebirth" since no light is seen upon it, which is how this text from Enoch 72 reads to one not wanting to promote a different "desire of doctrine". For some reason your "desire" has blinded you to the theme of the text and you are not reading simple statements like; "04] Thus it rises, and at its commencement towards the east goes forth for thirty days.", which I have taken from your quote of recorded words of truth. Again, the theme of the "recorded words of truth" are about the life cycle of the light upon the moon that ends, or completes in "thirty days", which was the old Israelite standard. Today we would argue or debate 28.5 days as the life cycle of light upon the moon’s face, suggesting the days of light have grown shorter over the centuries.

Dear Br. Tsavah, perchance you should not attempt to remove a perceived splinter from a brother's eye until you remove the plank from your own. You have given absolutely no scriptural support for your insinuation that the commencement of the moon's first phase is synonymous with the new moon.

Should I continue to use your words against your "desire of doctrine"? I am thinking I need not continue since the weakness of your logic is clear enough, but the actual issue is why do you want the moon’s cycle of light to be "new" starting with the full moon period? Normally a person that wants a different standard then what has been used for more then a hundred years has a reason for promoting a different, or "new" standard, but I hesitate to use the word "new" since that gives the impression your desire has "not been seen before". Since your desire has been promoted by many long before your "birth", it is not actually correct to say it is "new", as if a new moon, or month standard not seen before. Since we are creatures of "time" limits, it is not possible for us to see a month, or new moon until it makes itself visible, but your logic suggests a full moon is new, which is not possible (or logical) due to the fact a full moon appears full for at least two evenings and often three. This brings me back to your "desire" and why you would want to govern your life by a different standard then the ancient Israelite lunar cycle promoted by Mosheh (Moses)? Is there some sort of advantage to starting the month 30 day count with one of the full moon evenings? Which evening would be the first day of your month in a full moon standard? No one I know can tell me which full moon day is more full then another, unless a scientist using math. Math is a highly educated skill, especially when one is addressing using math in reference to a full moon event, but someone of the highly educated telescope skills and device might disagree and be able to teach how to observe the fullest full moon moment. This seems to me to be the direction you are going with your desire for a different lunar standard.

The best defense to what you cannot defend is to attack those of opposing understanding as somehow as heretical or even unbalanced in their reasoning. You have utterly failed to support your position with scripture, only with many empty words. I can show from scripture how to sight the New/Full Moon - would you like to provide scripture to support your erroneous traditional position??

Enoch 78:10-15 (http://www.piney.com/Apoc3Astronomy.html)

10] .... And Uriel showed me another law: when light is transferred to the moon, and on which side it is transferred to her by the sun. 11] During all the period during which the moon is growing in her light, she is transferring it to herself when opposite to the sun during fourteen days her light is accomplished in the heaven, 12] and when she is illumined throughout, her light is accomplished full in the heaven. And on the first 13] day she is called the new moon, for on that day the light rises upon her. She becomes full moon exactly on the day when the sun sets in the west, and from the east she rises at night, and the moon shines the whole night through till the sun rises over against her and the moon is seen over against the sun. 14] On the side whence the light of the moon comes forth, there again she wanes till all the light vanishes and all the days of the month are at an end, and her circumference is empty, void of 15] light.

In any case, I can see why a person would want to use a different standard for time keeping if it provides an advantage in the current age of mankind among empire builders. So my question to you as a friend of interest is what advantages does the full moon standard provide? Have you found the natural world governs itself by the full moon standard? If so, in what ways have you observed this? Do you farm or garden by the full moon standard? Do you hunt or raise food animals by this standard? So far my observations had taught me to use the ancient Hebrew lunar "new moon" standard since it seems to provide an advantage to basic life food production methods and results. This was also the reason why Mosheh taught the Israelites to use it, suggesting Egypt had adopted a slightly different time keeping method. If the Egyptians were using the same lunar time keeping method, then why would Mosheh feel the need to teach the Israelites a different way, since they would have already known of it and be using it? Remember when Mosheh asked Pharaoh for a rest day in seven? He seemed to think the idea was ridiculous, suggesting the Egyptian rest day or worship day period was longer. I remember reading the Roman calendar was once 10 days long for each week, so maybe there is a hint in that back to the Egyptian week length period. I have not researched this all that much, so I am only guessing at this point from a few clues I have mentioned. Even so, what advantage have you found for using the Full Moon standard, and counting 30 days for a month? I suppose I am curious why you are promoting this standard as opposed to the obvious Hebrew one that begins with "new" light upon the moon‘s surface.

Tsavah

Dear Br. Tsavah, maybe you should do more research. It was the Egyptian Agricultural Solar Calendar that was made up of 12 months 30 days each, with weeks of 10 days each with 5 extra days at the end of the year (6 in leap years). It began each year near the Summer Solstice with the heliacal rising of the star Sirius. Egypt had two lunar calendars that they followed contemporaneously. Their Lunar holidays indexed throughout the years, and were never at the same time from year to year. Your other comments expose the fact that you cling to fast and hard to tradition, rather than earnestly seeking truth. When truth is presented that upsets your traditions you raise the hackles on your stiff neck.

YashaNa.

Br. Paul

[Davide]

Message re-posted from The True Sabbaths And New Moons Group:

From: [e-mail]
Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 10:10 am

Enoch 78:10-15 (http://www.piney.com/Apoc3Astronomy.html)

10] .... And Uriel showed me another law: when light is transferred to the moon, and on which side it is transferred to her by the sun. 11] During all the period during which the moon is growing in her light, she is transferring it to herself when opposite to the sun during fourteen days her light is accomplished in the heaven, 12] and when she is illumined throughout, her light is accomplished full in the heaven. And on the first 13] day she is called the new moon, for on that day the light rises upon her. She becomes full moon exactly on the day when the sun sets in the west, and from the east she rises at night, and the moon shines the whole night through till the sun rises over against her and the moon is seen over against the sun. 14] On the side whence the light of the moon comes forth, there again she wanes till all the light vanishes and all the days of the "month are at an end," and her circumference is empty, void of 15] light.


RESPONSE; if all the light "vanishes "and all the days of the "month" are at an "end," when her circumference is empty, void of 15] light, WOULD NOT THAT BE THE BEGINNING OF A NEW MONTH ALSO?? i.e. when the moon is empty, NOT full as Paul and others suggests.

Brother Arnold

[Davide]

Message re-posted from The True Sabbaths And New Moons Group:

From: [e-mail]
Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 10:55 am

Sorry Paul, but Enoch is not saying what you wan't him to be saying, when he said,
And on the first day she is called the new moon, is referring back to the rebuilding, when the light first rises upon her, much like the wooden leg illustration you gave.

And on the first
13
day she is called the new moon, for on that day the light rises upon her. She becomes full moon exactly on the day when the sun sets in the west, and from the east she rises at night, and the moon shines the whole night through till the sun rises over against her and the moon is seen over against
14
the sun. On the side whence the light of the moon comes forth, there again she wanes till all the light vanishes and all the days of the month are at an end, and her circumference is empty, void of light.

Brother Arnold

[Davide]

Message re-posted from The True Sabbaths And New Moons Group:

From: [e-mail]
Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 11:18 am


Paul writes,

Enoch 77:12-16

12] Uriel likewise showed me another regulation, when light is poured into the moon, how it is poured into it from the sun. 13] All the time that the moon is in progress with its light, it is poured into it in the presence of the sun, until its light is in fourteen days completed in heaven. 14] And when it is wholly extinguished, its light is consumed in heaven; and on the first day it is called the new moon, for on that day light is received into it. 15] It becomes precisely completed on the day that the sun descends into the west, while the moon ascends at night from the east. 16] The moon then shines all the night, until the sun rises before it; when the moon disappears in turn before the sun.

Then he comments saying:

You will notice that the Moon's light is wholly consumed in heaven in 14 days. On the first day of being wholly consumed the Moon is called New. And the linch pin to understanding that we are not being told of the crescent moon is the fact that the New Moon shines all night until the sun rises. You will have to admit that any crescent moon observer will only briefly see the first crescent after sunset and not see the moon again the rest of that night. So it is quite obvious that the New Moon is NOT a crescent moon - but in fact the Fat / Plump / Fully illuminated Moon.


RESPONSE;
Wholly consumed in heaven in 14 days, is referring to the light going away after waning for 14 days and On the first day of being wholly consumed the Moon is called New. i.e. dark moon, NOT Fat / Plump / Fully illuminated Moon. Fully illuminated Moon and wholly consumed moon is opposite.

Brother Arnold

[Davide]

Message re-posted from The True Sabbaths And New Moons Group:

From: "Herb Crow" <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 5:23 pm

LOL, you make a good debater, returning precieved tit for tat. In any case,
I am curious about any advantage you see for using a full moon as the
marking, or starting of the Israelite new moon time management method. I
see time management as a critical standard one must use each year to govern
their life so that weather events are predictable since they can be and are
life threating if you guess wrong. So, this topic of time management is
very basic to a successful lifestyle, even as a settler wanting to grow a
few vegetables and fruit, or do some hunting for food critters, even if they
come running when the back door slams shut expecting to be fed.

I suppose the food gathering activities of the past are not as important to
"supermarket babies" in the city as they would be for the few in more rural
environments needing to produce or find some food, assuming one is not
producing all they eat. Is there an advantage for the full moon method to
manage the passing of time? If there is I am very interested, even if many
others might think the full moon time management method is useless. I am
looking for practical applications for the full moon time management method,
and in this case managing religious activities by it is not the big issue
for my question.

Tsavah

[Davide]

Message re-posted from The True Sabbaths And New Moons Group:

From: PWC <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:51 am

Dear Br. Tsavah,
In your last post to me you said in part: "Is there an advantage for the full moon method to manage the passing of time? If there is I am very interested, even if many others might think the full moon time management method is useless. I am looking for practical applications for the full moon time management method, and in this case managing religious activities by it is not the big issue for my question."
It is not my intention to demonstrate any advantages of reckoning the Full Moon as the New Moon, only to present evidence that the Full Moon is indeed the New Moon. You will have to decide for yourself what advantages there are, because it is by your own reasoning that you are trying to define scripture.
Br. Arnold has introduced evidence from Philo to support his erroneous stance on the Lunar Sabbath issue. Claudius Ptolemy (aka Claudius Ptolemaeus, Klaudios Ptolamaios, Ptolemeus) lived in Alexandria, Egypt from c. 87 -150 CE. He was an astronomer, mathematician and geographer. Ptolemy lacked about 30 years of being contemporaneous with Philo. Ptolemy wrote Terabiblos after the turn of the 2nd century CE. He demonstrates that not only is the New Moon the Full Moon, but that the calendar is Solar, which echoes the Book of Enoch (c. 50 BCE).

Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos translated J.M. Ashmand [1822]
The Tetrabiblos, or 'four-part book' of Ptolemy.
www.sacred-texts.com/astro/ptb/index.htm

Bk 1 Chpt II Knowledge May Be Acquired By Astronomy to a Certain Extent
The Sun, always acting in connection with the Ambient, contributes to the regulation of all earthly things: not only by the revolution of the seasons does he bring to perfection the embryo of animals, the buds of plants, the spring of waters, and the alteration of bodies, but by his daily progress also he operates other changes in light, heat, moisture, dryness and cold; dependent upon his situation with regard to the zenith.

The Moon, being of all the heavenly bodies the nearest to the Earth, also dispenses much influence; and things animate and inanimate sympathize and vary with her. By the changes of her illumination, rivers swell and are reduced; the tides of the sea are ruled by her risings and settings; and plants and animals are expanded or collapsed, if not entirely at least partially, as she waxes or wanes.
(http://www.sacred-texts.com/astro/ptb/ptb05.htm)

Bk 2 Chpt XI The New Moon of the Year
In every annual revolution made by the Sun, the first new Moon of the year is to be considered as the point of the commencement of his circuit; this is evident not only from its denomination, but from its virtue also. [ 1 ] ..... the point of the vernal equinox has been consequently designated by them as the beginning of the year; because, from that time, the duration of the day begins to exceed that of the night, and because the season then produced partakes highly of moisture, which is always a predominant quality in all incipient generation and growth. ..... Although the foregoing arrangement has been adopted by men of science to denote the commencement of the several seasons of the year, it yet seems to be more consonant to nature, and more consistent with the facts, that the combined positions of the Sun, and the new, or full, Moon, which happen when the Sun is nearest to the points above-mentioned, should mark the four beginnings; and more especially if such combined positions should produce eclipses: thus, from the new or full Moon, taking place when the Sun is nearest to the first point of Aries, the spring should be dated .....

[ 1 ] The Neomenia, or new Moon, was observed as a festival with much solemnity in earlier ages and by the most ancient nations. It was celebrated by the Israelites, as well as by Pagan; and it may perhaps be gathered from the 5th and 6th verses of the 10th Chapter of the 1st Book of Samuel, that it was kept once in a year with greater ceremony than at other times: this was done, probably, at the "New Moon of the Year," as Ptolemy calls it; or, in other words, at the new Moon nearest to the vernal equinox. (http://www.sacred-texts.com/astro/ptb/ptb41.htm)

Other pretty interesting passages can be found in the book The Cave of Treasures (a book from the 6th century CE tracing history from creation to Calvary) that supports a Solar Calendar of the Books of Enoch and Jubilees:

The Book of the Cave of Treasures (translated from the Syriac by E. A. Wallis Budge,
London, The Religious Tract Society, 1927) www.sacred-texts.com/chr/bct/
Pg 72-73 at www.sacred-texts.com/chr/bct/bct04.htm
And when the report "Adam is dying" was known generally, all his offspring gathered together, and came to him, that is to say, Seth, his son, and Anosh, and Kainan and Mahlalail, they and their wives [Fol. 9a, col. 1], and their sons, and their daughters; and Adam blessed them. And the departure of Adam from this world took place in the nine hundred and thirtieth year -- according to the reckoning from the beginning -- on the fourteenth day of the moon, on the sixth day of the month of Nîsan, at the ninth hour, on the day of the Eve of the Sabbath (i.e. Friday).

Pg 221 at www.sacred-texts.com/chr/bct/bct09.htm
And know thou also that Yahusha dwelt [Fol. 43b, col. 2] in Mary, and suffered in Nazareth, and was born in Bethlehem, and was laid in a manger, and was carried by Simeon in the Temple of Solomon, and was reared in Galilee, and was anointed by Mary Magdalene, and ate the Passover in the house of Nicodemus, the brother of Joseph of Rametha, and was bound in the house of Hannan, and was struck with a reed in the house of Caiaphas, and embraced the pillar and was scourged with a whip in the Praeorium of Pilate, and on Friday, on the first day of Nisan, on the fourteenth day of the moon, our Redeemer suffered. (This date corresponds to 30 CE)
There are many other specific dates given in the Cave of Treasures that testify against the erroneous Lunar Sabbath assertions. Please feel free to check them out.

YashaNa.
Br. Paul

[Davide]

Message re-posted from The True Sabbaths And New Moons Group:

From: [e-mail]
Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 12:44 pm

Paul writes,

"It is not my intention to demonstrate any advantages of reckoning the Full Moon as the New Moon, only to present evidence that the Full Moon is indeed the New Moon. You will have to decide for yourself what advantages there are, because it is by your own reasoning that you are trying to define scripture.

Br. Arnold has introduced evidence from Philo to support his erroneous stance on the Lunar Sabbath issue. Claudius Ptolemy (aka Claudius Ptolemaeus, Klaudios Ptolamaios, Ptolemeus) lived in Alexandria, Egypt from c. 87 -150 CE. He was an astronomer, mathematician and geographer. Ptolemy lacked about 30 years of being contemporaneous with Philo. Ptolemy wrote Terabiblos after the turn of the 2nd century CE. He demonstrates that not only is the New Moon the Full Moon, but that the calendar is Solar, which echoes the Book of Enoch (c. 50 BCE)".


RESPONSE; the evidence I introduced from Philo the Jew who lived at the same time of our Saviour who said the full moon was at the END of the second week, NOT AT THE BEGINNING OF THE FIRST WEEK, who also kept lunar Sabbaths the same as our Saviour did because there was no controversy between the Jews and our Saviour concerning the weekly Sabbath at that time.

The so-called evidence that you listed does not contradict lunar sabbaths but further supports that the sabbaths recorded in the information you give were by the moon as does the book Enock and Jubilees. Example you said, “Although the foregoing arrangement has been adopted by men of science to denote the commencement of the several seasons of the year, it yet seems to be more consonant to nature, and more consistent with the facts, that the combined positions of the Sun, and the new, or full, Moon, which happen when the Sun is nearest to the points above-mentioned, should mark the four beginnings; and more especially if such combined positions should produce eclipses: thus, from the new or full Moon, taking place when the Sun is nearest to the first point of Aries, the spring should be dated .....


RESPONSE; you misinterpret the Scriptures as well as these men's writings. This is not saying the new Moon is the full moon but is saying the new Moon or the full moon either one. You know we believe that the weekly sabbaths are on the eighth 15th 22nd and 29 each month and what you quoted here supports our believe not yours.

"The Book of the Cave of Treasures (translated from the Syriac by E. A. Wallis Budge,

London, The Religious Tract Society, 1927) www.sacred-texts.com/chr/bct/

Pg 72-73 at www.sacred-texts.com/chr/bct/bct04.htm

And when the report "Adam is dying" was known generally, all his offspring gathered together, and came to him, that is to say, Seth, his son, and Anosh, and Kainan and Mahlalail, they and their wives [Fol. 9a, col. 1], and their sons, and their daughters; and Adam blessed them. And the departure of Adam from this world took place in the nine hundred and thirtieth year -- according to the reckoning from the beginning -- on the “fourteenth” day of the moon, on the “sixth” day of the month of Nîsan, at the ninth hour, on the day of the Eve of the Sabbath (i.e. Friday).


RESPONSE; if the forte was preparation day for Eve of the Sabbath, then it is an absolute that the 15th was the weekly Sabbath as we teach.

WE KNOW THAT THE 14TH DAY OF THE MOON IS NOT THE SIXTH DAY OF THE MONTH SO IT MUST BE TALKING ABOUT THE SIXTH DAY OF THE WEEK

Adam died on preparation day (sixth day) and he was created on the preparation day/sixth day.

You are not the first one that has found pinpointed weekly sabbaths in history which support lunar Sabbaths. If the 15th was a weekly Sabbath, the day after Adam died, then the eighth 22nd and 29 were also weekly Sabbaths, this also is an absolute. So I thank you for another pinpointed weekly Sabbath in history that was by the moon.

Br. Arnold

[tibbar]

No fight, just thoughts and questions....
"Covered moon" doesn't prove much at all. I can easily claim it means dark moon and full moon.
The reason is simple "Covered with what?"
The moon has no light of it self so the sun covers it with light. -> Covered means light.
The moon is blocked from sight. Dark --> Covered means dark.
The earth is covered with water water doesn't mean earth is water. It just means the seas are on top of the soil.


While I'm NOT a supporter of the full moon starts the month I have doubts about the exact way the month starts.
When was conjunction first scientifically known by mankind? That's my big question. If nobody knew it couldn't be used.

I know all, well most :-), arguments for the conjunction, and first crescent. They all have their problems.
The Bible doesn't give us any detailed info directly. There is info, but it's scattered over the whole Bible and often written in way that's stirs up debate.
When they left Egypt Moses is told "this shall be the first month"
That's it. Nothing about crescents, conjunctions etc.
This *can* be viewed as Moses already knew the correct calendar but needed to make one adjustment.
In Acts 7:22 we read Moses had all the knowledge of Egypt. That most certainly included the calendar.

The Egyptians obviously had a start of their lunar month and gave names to the days that started the month.
Obviously they thoughts were very much pagan but perhaps useful for this discussion.
The dark day was (after the *last* crescent) was seen as conception of the moon. The first crescent was the day of first light.
For the Egyptians that dark day was the start of the month.
They celebrated the start big time. List are founds with things to do on certain things. The dark day had a vast list things to do. The first crescent day far less. That and other things prove the dark day was the most important day and the start of the month.

I'm not starting this with absolute 100% certainty but it looks like their month started the first dark day. Not conjunction.
As an educated man Moses knew all that and wasn't instructed by Yahweh to change that.
So I'm wondering if Moses just started the month as he had done all all his life, the Egyptian way.
Maybe you find this interesting: www.scribd.com/document/28442413/Using-the-Last-Crescent-to-anticipate-Conjunction


This was the first post of a true seeker who hates doctrine and stumbles to find the truth :-)